On today’s episode of 5 Things: Earlier this month, Donald Trump took direct aim at Rep. Liz Cheney by endorsing Wyoming’s Harriet Hageman in her Republican primary bid to unseat the third-term House member who supported impeaching the former president over the Jan. 6 insurrection at the U.S. Capitol.
Now, the battle is on for Republican values in the state that gave Trump his biggest victory margin against Joe Biden in 2020.
USA TODAY journalists Hannah Gaber and Ledyard King traveled to Wyoming earlier this summer to speak with voters about former President Trump’s influence on the Republican party.
They traversed hundreds of miles and spoke with dozens of constituents about their personal politics.
Hit play on the player above to hear the podcast and follow along with the transcript below. This transcript was automatically generated, and then edited for clarity in its current form. There may be some differences between the audio and the text.
Claire Thornton
Hey there, I’m Claire Thornton, and this is Five Things. It’s Sunday, September 19th. These Sunday episodes are special. We’re bringing you more from in-depth stories you may have already heard.
Former President Donald Trump is trying to squash one of his biggest opponents in the Republican party. Wyoming Congresswoman Liz Cheney, the state’s only House Representative. Trump endorsed the candidate running against Cheney for her House seat earlier this month. Wyoming is the state that gave Trump his biggest victory margin against Joe Biden in 2020. Will those voters also come out against Liz Cheney, who is one of only 10 Republican House members who voted to impeach Trump over what happened during the January 6th insurrection?
The Republican Party is still Trump’s party, even though he lost the presidency. And Wyoming has the smallest population of any state in the country, but this race between Liz Cheney and Harriet Hagman, well, it’s huge. USA Today Journalists Hannah Gaber and Ledyard King traveled from Washington, D.C. to Wyoming earlier this summer to actually talk to voters there about President Trump’s influence on the Republican party. They covered hundreds of miles and spoke with dozens of constituents about their personal politics. You’ll hear some of those interviews in just a second.
I’m bringing you a post-reporting trip recap from Hannah Gaber and Ledge King. They break down some of the key issues facing Wyomingites and the Republican Party more broadly. Here’s that conversation:
Hannah Gaber
I am Hannah Gaber, Senior Producer for politics with USA Today, and I’m here with Ledge King, who is one of our wonderful Washington correspondents. Ledge and I just got back from this epic trip to Wyoming, and I had never been there before. I’m from Arizona, so I mean, I love wide open spaces. I am accustomed to some wilderness, but Wyoming was so unexpected and next level and beautiful. And I had never been, so I didn’t know what to expect. Ledge, have you been to Wyoming before?
Ledyard King
Well, I have. As a young teenager, I was at a Dude Ranch for a couple of summers in a little town called Dubois, Wyoming. We got to ride horses, we got to swim, we got to meet cowboys, and go to the rodeo. For a city boy like me, I’m from Manhattan, so this was culture shock, but I loved it and I always remember it, and I’ve also been to Yellowstone. I took my kids there a few years ago and also had an uncle who lived in Wyoming that I used to visit. So, I’ve been there a few times.
Hannah Gaber
Oh my gosh. That is so cool. I, unfortunately, have not made a Yellowstone yet, so I’m very jealous of that.
Ledyard King
Shame on you.
Hannah Gaber
I know, shame on me. It’s on the list. So one of the things that I just thought was really fascinating too, so I did the math. We were there for four days. We got in, including the days that we flew in and flew out, we covered 700 miles. And that doesn’t even count that we actually had to fly into Denver because, I don’t know about you when you were looking for flights, there weren’t even any flights from D.C. To Cheyenne for the dates that we were looking at.
It was epic, but I really thought it was interesting, and I remember this from Arizona too. I think it’s so interesting, the way that place and space can affect the way people think of themselves and especially think of their role in their own society. I know a couple of people mentioned that. For example, Bill, one of our guides, he sort of became a de facto guide for us, Bill Sniffin. I’m going to let you describe Bill because you found him and he’s your character. So you’ll explain Bill to us, but he said something really interesting about the way that he thinks that space affects Wyomingites, and voters especially.
Bill Sniffin
We’re not lonely, but because there’s just so few people, we become more self-reliant, we do look after each other, and the power of the individual looms a lot bigger than it does if you were living in a city of three million people. Your self image of yourself as an individual has to be different when you look around, and as far as your eye can see, there’s nobody there but us.
Ledyard King
Bill is a genteel gentleman of Wyoming. He’s actually originally from Iowa, but moved there in his early 20s and became an embraced journalism, was a publisher and editor. He now runs an online newsletter called Cowboy State Daily. It’s a little news, it’s a lot of politics and it’s a great insight into sort of the thinking of the state. He talks about the power of the individual and the importance of space. Also, you have to take into account how low density and how this is the smallest populated state in the country. There’s fewer people here than there are in Washington DC. There’s fewer than six people per square mile. Bill says, that the individual feels more important perhaps than they would in another place. He actually calls Wyoming a city with long streets. Which is funny because it’s hundreds of miles in some cases from one population center to another, and it’s all driven on 80 mile an hour posted speed limits. Sometimes we went a little faster than.
Hannah Gaber
I was going to say, or a little more if you want to push it.
Ledyard King
Yeah, exactly. But It’s this idea that people are connected to their land and to their area differently than a lot of the rest of the country is. You know if you’re in a city, you have a different perspective on crowds. Bill says, you feel more like an ant and a colony in a city. Where is here you feel empowered of sorts. A gazelle, I guess, to use my term on an open space and you can run free and it affects how you think about things you’re less interested in government mandates and edicts. And you feel like, well, I’m self-responsible, self-reliant, I can take care of myself and that is what we found, I think on our trip.
Hannah Gaber
I totally agree with that. I mean, so many people were saying there was this really interesting conversation about “Wyoming values”. We see this a lot in politics, right. It’s sort of has become one of those kind of identifying ways that people speak to each other when they assume that the person in front of them understands what they’re talking about. Sort of in an ingroup way where it’s like, nobody actually gave us a list of what Wyoming values are, but everybody, when anybody else said it would sort of just nod and be like, yeah “Wyoming values” that’s right.
The other thing I thought was so interesting, is that anyone we spoke to really had a sense that they were entitled to have met personally, any of their politicians, including Liz Cheney, who is obviously like the big wig, their only representative in the House of Representatives in D.C. And some of the people who were like, oh, Liz has fallen from favorite for me, said that a lot of it was they hadn’t seen her. I haven’t seen her in the last little while. And you know, to me, if she’s not going to be around, I just thought that was so amazing. And it’s so different. Right?
Ledyard King
Yeah. I talked to a Democratic lawmaker and yes, there are a few of them around here in Wyoming. And I asked them, do you know Liz Cheney? And she said, well, have I ever had dinner or coffee with them? Because that’s how they measure whether you know somebody. You have personal face-to-face meetings. In this case, she said, no, she had not. This is an area of wide space, but personal touch. It’s kind of an odd juxtaposition on it. But you’re right, people expect accountability from their representatives, from their government, from their grocery stores, even. You feel like you need to touch things and be there. And, that’s how people are. It’s a very personal kind of experience I’ve found.
Hannah Gaber
That’s a really good point, and I think that really does say a lot how people… I like how you pointed out they do expect accountability. They expect someone to answer for something. I thought it was really interesting because we saw that. Let me set the scene, so we’re in the car with Bill. He’s telling us about these wide open spaces. I remember asking him, my God, is that creosote. It’s the same stuff we have in Arizona. You know, we’re 2000 feet up, we’ve got Sagebrush in Arizona, and it’s the same like high Sierra type, I guess they call it the High Plains-
Ledyard King
High Prairie.
Hannah Gaber
Yeah, High Prairie out in Wyoming. We’re whizzing between these two tiny, tiny towns. We’re between Riverton, is 10,000 people-ish. Lander is 7,000 people-ish.
And we’re joining this group of guys… this place, this lodge. They’re having coffee together in the travel lodge restaurant, which is built just like a log cabin. It’s just a log cabin in the middle of a parking lot. And you go inside, I’m telling you it’s smells like hash browns and coffee. And there they are at this long banquet table. And they call themselves the Fox News All-Stars. They were there to meet someone who has since suspended his campaign. A local boy trying to make it big and run against Liz Cheney. And they’re there six days a week to talk politics, to have coffee at an ungodly early hour in the morning. I mean, what did you think of the Fox News All-Stars Ledge? That was the highlight of the trip.
Ledyard King
I thought they were great. They were articulate. They were candid. They didn’t play their feelings about stuff low. But let me just pick up on a theme that you talked about sort of the intimacy of Wyoming politics. Here’s a congressional candidate. Think about this, a congressional candidate who travels 200 miles basically to get to a coffee with eight people in it. That’s how retail the politics are in Wyoming. There was a former Mayor. There’s a County Commissioner. These are not like people who don’t have skin in the game, shall we say.
Hannah Gaber
There are politicos for Wyoming. There’s certainly politicos.
Ledyard King
Exactly. And they have influenced around their neighborhoods, I’m sure. But the fact that this particular candidate, his name is Darren Smith came to speak to them, shows sort of how important every single vote matters to people, matter to key people who are running. Liz Cheney went to this group a few years ago. Dick Cheney, her father was there as well. If you haven’t met somebody in Wyoming that lives there, you will. That’s just kind of the nature of the game. But, these guys were really great. It was a great window into sort of the thinking of what’s happening in this state with Liz Cheney and how many of them feel as one said betrayed by her vote to impeach Trump. We had a good discussion about where we go from here, whether Trumpism needs Trump and the future with Cheney. It was just an interesting conversation over coffee and eggs.
Hannah Gaber
It’s really funny too, because this is one of the things that is so interesting, Wyoming is a relatively homogeneous area in a lot of ways. It’s almost 93% white, according to the most recent census. They don’t have a ton of voters almost about 300,000, but 60% of them, something like that are registered as Republicans. This group was really interesting because in as much as there is variety in the political thinking, we saw kind of a spectrum of takes on Republican politics in Wyoming and nationally and perspectives on Liz Cheney. So here’s just a couple of those guys had to say,
Speaker 5
It really comes down to who I think knows Washington and can deal with Washington the best. Now, maybe after, you know, six, eight years when some new you already built up, maybe one of the other candidates will be able to do some good for Wyoming. But as far as I can tell, Liz got planning 2.0 passed, almost as soon as she got in, as far as I can tell, she’s been very effective. So it’s not that I have any particular love of everything that she does. I hardly disagree with her on her outlook about keeping troops abroad and that sort of thing. I think that’s a real flaw in how she looks at things being a internationalist and that sort of thing. I’m not. But, I still think that she would be even after her flaw, I still think she would do the best for Wyoming out of anybody that’s running right now.
Speaker 6
Well, the second impeachment [inaudible 00:14:41]. I just didn’t think that was necessary for any of we’re going to be so supportive and then be part of that. We all knew her and everyone knew it. The guy had been beaten up for four years. And so he’s out of office basically. So what’s the use?
Ledyard King
Well, Think about it this way, this is the state that gave Donald Trump his biggest margin of victory in 2020. It’s about, as you said, about two thirds registered Republican. Democrats not going to have much of a chance in this state, but it’s more than that. There’s a sensibility to the state that almost borders on libertarian. And this goes back to this idea of space and place and the power of the individual. They’re not into masks, they’re not into vaccines. They one of the least vaccinated states in the nation. And even as their cases arising, I mean, they’re proud about her almost.
Hannah Gaber
And they’re not into being told to wear masks even perhaps more than the mask themselves.
Ledyard King
Exactly. In fact, when we were there, the Laramie County school board, which is Cheyenne, was having a debate over whether to mandate masks and one parent who spoke to board saying who was against it said, the whole reason we came to Wyoming was to get away from mandates like these. And, the board ultimately decided not to impose a mandate, but conservative doesn’t even do it justice. It’s really almost libertarian and it’s ethos. I think what we found are people that were sort of very self-reliant and they don’t like big government. I mean, half the state almost is federal land. So they’re already being told that they can’t use it for this, and they can’t use it for that. And you’ve got Washington who’s also trying to cut out fossil fuels. The energy industry is huge in Wyoming, it’s the largest producer of coal in the country. People think that’s West Virginia. No, it’s by far Wyoming.
Hannah Gaber
That I did not know, thank you for that Ledge.
Ledyard King
There’s definitely a feeling of like we’re in better position to know what’s best for us than the government. And I think that came through loud and clear through all our conversations in Casper, Riverton, Lander, Cheyenne, and at the state fair in Douglas.
Hannah Gaber
Oh yeah, absolutely. It was interesting because I think that one of the ways that really reflected was in the mixed reactions we got to the idea of a Trump endorsement. Since we’ve been there, Trump has indeed endorsed a candidate and it was sort of a, not a dark horse, but it was someone that a lot of people were sort of… She hadn’t announced anything yet. She had sort of stayed a little quiet. I’m going to go back to a question that you asked while we were visiting the Fox News All-Stars and they sort of summed up what might happen here.
Speaker 5
I still think that there’s a chance that Wyoming people are to look at Trump like, don’t matter in our election. I always think that’s a possibility. You see that a lot from other campaign brought in outside powerhouses to campaign for him and endorsements and stuff like that. It’s our election.
Speaker 6
Wyoming is don’t tell us what you did over there. We’re here. And we’re not overly interested in somebody coming into our state all the time and telling us how we ought to be. And that goes for him too, you know, gates and the other monkeys that come in here, we’re just not overly interested in what they think we ought to do.
Hannah Gaber
But, as we said, a lot of the people that we spoke to really liked this America first agenda, as they described it. Trump has endorsed. I mean, what do we know just briefly about Harriet Hagerman?
Ledyard King
Well, she ran for governor in 2018. Did not win. She then became a Republican National Committee woman, every state has two. She just resigned that to run for Congress. She’s an attorney. She practices law on issues of federal overreach. So she sort of fits in with this Wyoming notion that all the decisions, or at least as many as possible should be local. What’s really interesting about her is that she was once close to Liz Cheney. She was an advisor to her early Senate campaign, which is, Liz Cheney ended up canceling. And then she also has been a donor to Liz Cheney, but like a lot of Republicans here who supported Liz Cheney, Hagerman soured on her, won the impeachment vote when Liz Cheney cast her impeachment vote against Trump. Cheney continues to sort of be defiant in her opposition to Trump.
She’s vowed that he’ll never be in the oval office again. She’s now the Vice Chair of the January 6 Commission investigating whether Trump instigated or how much of blame he should receive for instigating the January 6th attack on the Capitol. So they won’t dispute that it was an attack, what they’ll dispute it was an insurrection. The point they’re making is, well, that it was not as serious as people like Liz Cheney are say it is. That’s already kind of a contrast between, forget whether Trump has blamed in that. There’s a difference of opinion, Liz Cheney has with many of our constituents on just how serious January 6th was. So, in Hagerman who Trump has endorsed with Gusto, shall we say, because she visited him in the Bedminster Country Club, and God is blessing, and now she’s running. It’ll be Trump’s chief enemy and the Republican party against Trump’s endorsed candidate. And it will be really an epic fight and a state that usually keeps quiet about political battles. I mean, this is going to be a national knockout kind of fight.
Hannah Gaber
One of the things that was really interesting was that nobody really refuted this sort of hyperbolic sounding idea that this is a battle of world views within the Republican party. Darren Smith even said that to us the day we arrived. We were sort of with him in his favorite juice shop that a friend of his runs. And he sort of said it to us then. And he said it to us again, after meeting with another coffee group, that the other one in Riverton.
Ledyard King
The battle for the soul of America
Hannah Gaber
Battle for the soul of America. But, if you speak to someone like Joe McGinley, who was a bit more of an establishment figure, he would say that especially the people who are willing to talk to us, the media are not representative of what he thinks is the majority of Wyomingites who are, and we heard this phrase a lot too “silent majority”.
Speaker 7
Right here in Wyoming. We still truly have a silent majority. So all of the individuals you’re speaking to are not the silent majority. They’re the ones that are willing to speak up and voice their opinion. In my experience here in the Republican party, there is a large percentage of individuals that want nothing to do with speaking to any reporter, speaking to anyone about their opinion to them, it’s personal and they’ll show up and they’ll express their opinion when it’s time to vote. What we’re seeing in the political parties is it permanent. No, absolutely not. There’s again, a silent majority out there. A lot of good conservative Republicans that are saying, okay, enough is enough in this situation. Let’s get the party back to what we believe in. Let’s get back to principles instead of people. So we’re starting to see the, the base, the true silent majority, get frustrated with the rhetoric from both sides. I think it’s temporary. And I think it’s social media based.
Hannah Gaber
Joe’s main point I feel like was that he felt the Republican party was not going to be a party of a person for long, even if it is in the immediate future. Following Trump, Ledge, tell us a little bit about Joe and what you felt like his overall takeaway was.
Ledyard King
Joe was a fascinating guy. He grew up in the Philly suburbs, moved to San Francisco and then landed in Casper. He runs a sport’s medicine clinic. He’s also a medical entrepreneur. He has all these patents that can help people who break bones and orthopedics and all that sort of stuff. He also was the Chairman of the Natrona County Republican party for a while. That’s where Casper is. So it’s actually in Wyoming, it’s one of the bigger counties and one of the bigger party organizations. But, He’s of the mindset that while he likes Trumpism and thought that the president accomplished a lot of things that were good for the country, he is less enamored with Trump himself.
He supports Cheney at this point, and he thinks that the party is bigger than a person that it’s more ideals and principles. I mean, sort of what Cheney has been saying as well, and that we have to get past this moment in time where it’s become for many, a cult of personality and get back to sort of an organization of ideas and a movement that the party can rally around. Because right now it is still, although it is still Trump’s party, it is a divided party. And how divided, well, we’ll see, within a year when this primary takes place.
Hannah Gaber
Ledge, other than the obvious of whether chaining holds onto her seat or not, what are you going to be calling Bill Sniffin about after the primary to ask?
Ledyard King
I think we’ll ask the question that we’ve raised at Wyoming itself is risen. The entire country has raised, and that is can the party move, has the party moves beyond Trump?
Speaker 8
Now? I think that not everybody in Wyoming is a Trump supporter. I think that because 70% of the people voted for Trump, there’s a lot of those folks that didn’t mind Joe Biden. I think to just assume that 70% of the people are pro Trumpers is erroneous. It’s like anything it’s not as certain as it might appear on the surface, but Trump has tremendous loyalty in Wyoming. But, it’s more than Donald Trump. I think Wyoming really has an America first agenda. I think Wyoming out here in the frontier, I think people really do appreciate that whole agenda that, that Donald Trump put forth.
Ledyard King
I mean, the former president is still hinting at a run in 2024. A lot of that decision may well depend on how he does in Wyoming. If he’s not powerful enough or influential enough to get his chief enemy out of the way or to squash her, well what does that say about the legions to the president when he wants to run in 2024? So I’m going to ask Bill that question is, Have people evolved? Are people still very much attracted to not just his ideas, but Trump as well. We talked to a cowboy rancher by the name of-
Hannah Gaber
Reid Lance Rosenthal [crosstalk 00:27:38]
Ledyard King
What a character. And I remember asking him this very question, can Trumpism survive without Trump? And he said, it can, it will. Then he stopped and he said, we just haven’t found the right person yet. So, I mean, there’s a sense of, well, we can take the training wheels off and ride the bike, but nobody wants to take the training wheels off yet because you’re not sure.
Hannah Gaber
What’s so interesting too, on the flip side of that is, if Liz Cheney loses in her own state with her legacy name, I think that also is a huge indicator of like, does Trumpism need Trump or is Trump ism here to stay one way or the other?
Ledyard King
Right. It’s such a perfect storm to quote Bill. You have the state that gave Trump as big as victory. You have a family dynastic Congresswoman who is now his chief rival within the party. And it’s all going to come to a head in August 2022 when Wyomingites decide whether to keep her in or vote her out.
Hannah Gaber
All eyes on Wyoming.
Ledyard King
That’s right.
Claire Thornton
‘Thanks for listening. You can get more from Hannah Gaber and Ledyard King on Twitter. They’re @HannahGReports and @LedgeKing. Make sure to look out for their full story on Wyoming’s Republican primary out later this month on USAToday.com. You may be asked to subscribe before reading. I’ve also included some stories on Liz Cheney, former President Trump, and Harriet Hagman in the episode notes, check them out. And if you liked this episode of Five Things, write us a review on apple podcasts, telling us what you liked about it.
When you write us a review, you’ll get a special shout out on the show. We want to hear from you. Especially if you’re a new listener, you can keep getting more from the show every morning by following or subscribing on whatever platform you’re listening. I also want to remind you all that you can listen to the show by asking your smart speaker to play the Five Things Podcast from USA today. I love getting my news on my smart speaker, because I think it’s a great way to reduce screen time. That’s all for now. Taylor Wilson will be back tomorrow morning with five things you need to know for Monday. Thanks for listening. I’m Claire Thornton. I’ll see you next Sunday until then keep up with me on Twitter, where I’m @Claire_thornto.
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